Joe Millennial spends a bit too much time on Reddit and decides to try something called The FIRE Movement. FIRE stands for Financial Independence, Retire Early. He reads of people retiring at age 35 (or even 30!) and having scads of time to pursue their dreams, unshackled from the drudgery of their stultifying 9-to-5 jobs.
I have read a lot of the MMM (and other) FIRE stuff. It's interesting, and I enjoy reading your well reasoned counterpoint JD. But I think you are missing the part about using the post-early-retirement time to do productive, life-enhancing things. The guy you're talking about, Pete, took up carpentry (for himself and as a job for clients) , started a coworking business, blogs, plays music, etc.
As the Anonymous commenter below started, whether you retire at 35 or 65 you better have something to give you purpose or you're going to spiral down the toilet, wasting your life. I think MMM has found his purpose - and writes about it - but everyone gets so caught up in the excitement of getting to the retirement finish line, they don't pay much attention to the post-retirement time.
I have done well in my career, now early 50's. I am thinking about retiring in the next 2 years - but haven't figured out a post-retirement plan yet. Until I do I won't be retiring. Is 55 'early'? Not by the FIRE standards, but I hope it's still early in my life.
I am much closer to your opinion on the materialism aspect of all this than the FIRE people - but having grown up in New England I have some deep seated thriftyness in me too. I wouldn't want to spend my retired years a) worrying about money, or b) stressing over watching the market. Part of me things the FIRE thing was born out of a low interest rate bubble. I never heard anyone talking about early retirement when mortgage rates were 8%+.
One last thought - what you do JD might be considered "retirement" by a lot of people, maybe including your former Wall Street coworkers. You created your own business, have no employees (except maybe an intern?) to worry about, live in a nice low-cost-of-living part of the country, can set your own schedule, work wherever you prefer to, etc. As a business owner with lots of employees and responsibilities, the life you've built seems like a nice way to downshift to me. :-)
As I read your comment I was preparing to respond and then I read your final paragraph and you actually wrote the antithesis of what I thought my response would embody.
First, Jared isn't "retired" by any stretch of the imagination, and what he does is considered to you somehow not "work"? Time spent to produce something that generates a return? How do you define "work"? How do you refine "retirement"? I mean those questions without judgement or sarcasm, but your words make me want to have an understanding of what we are talking about.
Further to that, and tangential, is the idea I had while reading the article and your response, which is: "Why retire if you are generating money and/or doing what you love?" Some people actually like their work. And the money that comes with it. There is nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, there is a strong point around "What are you going to do with yourself?" if you have no hobbies, no craft, no enjoyment in life and simply don't want to work as soon as possible.
I'm probably rambling a bit. It's late here. I don't see retirement happening in my life and I am not sad about that. Good night and best to you all.
The comments here are far more measured than this post. I can tell Jared thought about this for about 5 minutes, took some stereotypes, and like 3 tweets he encountered that rubbed him the wrong way, and then wrote a diatribe on the evils of FIRE.
"I want to produce a lot and consume a lot. That is pretty much what life is all about. " Look man even my dogs know when to stop consuming. They don't eat until they can't move any more and then throw up, they stop after they have had a reasonable amount. There is such a thing as "enough". I don't see you raising 10 to 20 kids, that would be (re)producing a lot and consuming a lot. How many kids do you have and why did you stop at that number?
Some of the good things are good. Too much of a good thing and you die. Early. And in pain.
I opted for "fatFIRE," retiring early from a rewarding but sometimes stressful career with millions invested and a six-figure annual spend. I don't pay close attention to the stock market, and another big drawdown wouldn't phase me. Spending well under 2% of our nest egg annually, it's more likely that we'll end up with a 9-figure net worth than zero.
In the 4+ years since I wound down my primary career, we've been able to travel all over the world for weeks and sometimes months at a time, "worldschooling" our boys while visiting amazing and historic places before they reached high school. They've seen glaciers in New Zealand, volcanoes in Hawaii, geysers in Iceland, and pyramids in Mexico. They've set foot in the Parthenon in Athens, the Pantheon in Rome, and saw the purported Holy Grail in Valencia, a city we got to know well over the course of a month. They've toured Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam, Schindler's Factory in Krakow, the Holocaust Museum in D.C. and Auschwitz / Birkenau in rural Poland.
Reaching FI and choosing RE made all of this and more possible, and my boys are now thriving in a traditional school setting.
There's so much more. My wife and I have both run our first marathons in the last two years. I took up skiing after a 30-year break, and my kids and I skied 30+ days together last season. I have a 1500+ day streak with the Duolingo language learning app, and I've got a similar streak with a daily body-weight exercise routine.
I get that FIRE isn't for everyone, and when you describe it as leanFIRE for the hopeless, it's obviously not appealing.
I don't know that I'm retired for good. I retired from medicine in 2019 and from blogging in 2023. I love the blank slate that I've got in front of me, and I'm curious to discover what I might retire from next. But in the meantime, I am forever grateful for the freedom I had to explore the world with my family while our kids were young enough to enjoy our company and old enough to appreciate the experiences we were able to give them.
For a very different take on FIRE from what you've apparently been exposed to, you can check out my writings at Physician on FIRE where I explored FI and RE during the finaly years of my physician career and the first few years after. In my projections, I used returns of 0% to 6% real, by the way, not 12% to 15%. I don't know anyone not Dave Ramsey who does this.
Complete garbage post. FIRE practitioners adhere to the 4% rule, meaning that spending this amount or less of your net worth annually will prevent one from running out of money. Many longtime FIRE practitioners, including several prominent and wise podcasters located in your derided Longmont, CO, actually advocate spending more than 4%. They are most assuredly not anti-consumers. One guy bought an expensive car and paid 50k to hire a band. FIRE advocates tend to see their net worth expand over time. Nobody is sitting around sweating the stock market. Get a clue dude!
I have 2 second degree LinkedIn connections who tried van life for a year. They ended up spending more than renting because they spent on laundry, eating out, car upgrades, car repairs, gas, and hotels.
You mention the kids being in therapy. Ride a bike and eat nothing but ramen noodles and you won't have a wife or kids! 😄 And I do assume it's a guy as this seems to be a male dominated endeavor.
I don't even know where to begin with this. I'm not FIRE yet, but I plan on getting there in the next 10 years. I have a beautiful wife and kids, a good paying job, a nice 4/3 house and a used SUV. Most people I know dont give a shit if you drive a Lexus, have a McMansion, or buy that shiny new coat at the store with a credit card. And let me tell you a little secret...buying shit like that doesnt make you wealthy, it lines the pocket of other people. There arent that many dream jobs left and a greater share of the profits are going to (not you). Sorry, most people arent going to "manifest" their way out of by trying to pull themselves up by their boots harder. The quickest way out of the rat race is to not be a rat. Dont spend money on stupid shit, invest the savings in a business or the stock market, and do something better with your life than working your ass off to make somebody else rich so you can buy something shiny
I wonder if this article makes somewhat of a straw man of the argument for FIRE. No doubt retirement itself can be enervating and the beginning of a slow, purposeless decline. But normal people in the real world are more often than not stretched between priorities, held beneath the arbitrary whims of management, the vagaries of life and their costs, and lacking the psychological or financial bandwidth to create space and "discover" themselves and pursue their passion. Flecks of meaning can add up here and there, but the argument seems to discount the frictions of life that can make FIRE or a less extreme derivative rational and attractive to pursue as part of a diversified life strategy to living well.
I agree that someone coming out of college should not be focused on FIRE. One should be focused on building a foundation for a career and finances. But I believe it is wrong to denigrate the entire FIRE movement. The vast majority of those who are truly FIREd (meaning that, regardless of the market, they do not have to work) do so in their 50s and early 60s, have enough assets (from the foundation established by the career and good financial planning) to have diversified, probably like (or like me) loved their jobs but time became more important than money, and are staying active and minimizing sitting time, whether in front of the TV, tablet, or computer. But I do question those who seek to do this in their 30s, as there is just too much life and unexpected things that can occur at that time in ones life. When the pandemic hit, I saw many young "FIRE" people panicking because their chosen side hustle had dried up and they needed to find work. They are not FIREd. Be patient, and do not think about FIRE until you are older.. Slow and steady wins the race.
This is good advice. Although I’m not sure the FIRE folk would agree that retiring in one’s 50s and early 60s is FIREing. Then again, who cares? Call it whatever you want.
I retired at 58 and am in year 6. I loved my work and my career, and as you aptly observed, got to the point where time was worth more to me than money; and I was at a crossroads (layoff) when I decided I’d had enough and simply dropped out. I don’t think of myself as a FIREee, though. My goal was never to retire as early as possible. It was to live life as much as possible, find engaging work, save up for “some day”, and keep my head down.
One day I woke up and realized I was done - because time was worth more to me than money; and I had enough money to do something about it.
In fact, I read it twice. Thank you for a great morning read ;)
BUT, to echo some of the other commenters, the people I know who aim for FIRE don't really see it as a way for a future of doing nothing other than playing guitar all day, but see it more as the point where you have your... how we call it... FU money.
Your boss really annoys you? FU. I can take my time and change for another job or accept a lower pay. Your company needs to restructure and lays you off? FU. I can handle that. COVID Ver.21. comes around the corner? FU. I don't need government handouts. I want to start a small business? FU. Hell yeah I can do that without worrying about my expenses being covered.
Early retirement to me means more golf trips, bicycling around the world, teaching high school history, and running for city council.
Time value of money and the belief that the vast majority of people will remain productive and/or innovative and that productivity will reflect in higher stock prices over time tells me that I ought to decay in front of a computer screen for a bit longer to invest as much as possible before I pursue the above.
I welcome the idea of actually getting to a place of being bored, I can't even imagine it at this point.
If my desire for FIRE leads to a new form of existential crisis, at least I'll be rich having the next one because I live there already.
I have read a lot of the MMM (and other) FIRE stuff. It's interesting, and I enjoy reading your well reasoned counterpoint JD. But I think you are missing the part about using the post-early-retirement time to do productive, life-enhancing things. The guy you're talking about, Pete, took up carpentry (for himself and as a job for clients) , started a coworking business, blogs, plays music, etc.
As the Anonymous commenter below started, whether you retire at 35 or 65 you better have something to give you purpose or you're going to spiral down the toilet, wasting your life. I think MMM has found his purpose - and writes about it - but everyone gets so caught up in the excitement of getting to the retirement finish line, they don't pay much attention to the post-retirement time.
I have done well in my career, now early 50's. I am thinking about retiring in the next 2 years - but haven't figured out a post-retirement plan yet. Until I do I won't be retiring. Is 55 'early'? Not by the FIRE standards, but I hope it's still early in my life.
I am much closer to your opinion on the materialism aspect of all this than the FIRE people - but having grown up in New England I have some deep seated thriftyness in me too. I wouldn't want to spend my retired years a) worrying about money, or b) stressing over watching the market. Part of me things the FIRE thing was born out of a low interest rate bubble. I never heard anyone talking about early retirement when mortgage rates were 8%+.
One last thought - what you do JD might be considered "retirement" by a lot of people, maybe including your former Wall Street coworkers. You created your own business, have no employees (except maybe an intern?) to worry about, live in a nice low-cost-of-living part of the country, can set your own schedule, work wherever you prefer to, etc. As a business owner with lots of employees and responsibilities, the life you've built seems like a nice way to downshift to me. :-)
Well said. What comes up clearly from this post is JD's failure of imagination but then he is into finance ;-)
As I read your comment I was preparing to respond and then I read your final paragraph and you actually wrote the antithesis of what I thought my response would embody.
First, Jared isn't "retired" by any stretch of the imagination, and what he does is considered to you somehow not "work"? Time spent to produce something that generates a return? How do you define "work"? How do you refine "retirement"? I mean those questions without judgement or sarcasm, but your words make me want to have an understanding of what we are talking about.
Further to that, and tangential, is the idea I had while reading the article and your response, which is: "Why retire if you are generating money and/or doing what you love?" Some people actually like their work. And the money that comes with it. There is nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, there is a strong point around "What are you going to do with yourself?" if you have no hobbies, no craft, no enjoyment in life and simply don't want to work as soon as possible.
I'm probably rambling a bit. It's late here. I don't see retirement happening in my life and I am not sad about that. Good night and best to you all.
The comments here are far more measured than this post. I can tell Jared thought about this for about 5 minutes, took some stereotypes, and like 3 tweets he encountered that rubbed him the wrong way, and then wrote a diatribe on the evils of FIRE.
"I want to produce a lot and consume a lot. That is pretty much what life is all about. " Look man even my dogs know when to stop consuming. They don't eat until they can't move any more and then throw up, they stop after they have had a reasonable amount. There is such a thing as "enough". I don't see you raising 10 to 20 kids, that would be (re)producing a lot and consuming a lot. How many kids do you have and why did you stop at that number?
Some of the good things are good. Too much of a good thing and you die. Early. And in pain.
Strawman defeated!
I opted for "fatFIRE," retiring early from a rewarding but sometimes stressful career with millions invested and a six-figure annual spend. I don't pay close attention to the stock market, and another big drawdown wouldn't phase me. Spending well under 2% of our nest egg annually, it's more likely that we'll end up with a 9-figure net worth than zero.
In the 4+ years since I wound down my primary career, we've been able to travel all over the world for weeks and sometimes months at a time, "worldschooling" our boys while visiting amazing and historic places before they reached high school. They've seen glaciers in New Zealand, volcanoes in Hawaii, geysers in Iceland, and pyramids in Mexico. They've set foot in the Parthenon in Athens, the Pantheon in Rome, and saw the purported Holy Grail in Valencia, a city we got to know well over the course of a month. They've toured Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam, Schindler's Factory in Krakow, the Holocaust Museum in D.C. and Auschwitz / Birkenau in rural Poland.
Reaching FI and choosing RE made all of this and more possible, and my boys are now thriving in a traditional school setting.
There's so much more. My wife and I have both run our first marathons in the last two years. I took up skiing after a 30-year break, and my kids and I skied 30+ days together last season. I have a 1500+ day streak with the Duolingo language learning app, and I've got a similar streak with a daily body-weight exercise routine.
I get that FIRE isn't for everyone, and when you describe it as leanFIRE for the hopeless, it's obviously not appealing.
I don't know that I'm retired for good. I retired from medicine in 2019 and from blogging in 2023. I love the blank slate that I've got in front of me, and I'm curious to discover what I might retire from next. But in the meantime, I am forever grateful for the freedom I had to explore the world with my family while our kids were young enough to enjoy our company and old enough to appreciate the experiences we were able to give them.
For a very different take on FIRE from what you've apparently been exposed to, you can check out my writings at Physician on FIRE where I explored FI and RE during the finaly years of my physician career and the first few years after. In my projections, I used returns of 0% to 6% real, by the way, not 12% to 15%. I don't know anyone not Dave Ramsey who does this.
Cheers!
Leif
Complete garbage post. FIRE practitioners adhere to the 4% rule, meaning that spending this amount or less of your net worth annually will prevent one from running out of money. Many longtime FIRE practitioners, including several prominent and wise podcasters located in your derided Longmont, CO, actually advocate spending more than 4%. They are most assuredly not anti-consumers. One guy bought an expensive car and paid 50k to hire a band. FIRE advocates tend to see their net worth expand over time. Nobody is sitting around sweating the stock market. Get a clue dude!
Looking forward to reading your new book! Congratulations on another project completed and living out your passion for writing.
I have 2 second degree LinkedIn connections who tried van life for a year. They ended up spending more than renting because they spent on laundry, eating out, car upgrades, car repairs, gas, and hotels.
Great post. Bought the book, er Kindle.
You mention the kids being in therapy. Ride a bike and eat nothing but ramen noodles and you won't have a wife or kids! 😄 And I do assume it's a guy as this seems to be a male dominated endeavor.
I don't even know where to begin with this. I'm not FIRE yet, but I plan on getting there in the next 10 years. I have a beautiful wife and kids, a good paying job, a nice 4/3 house and a used SUV. Most people I know dont give a shit if you drive a Lexus, have a McMansion, or buy that shiny new coat at the store with a credit card. And let me tell you a little secret...buying shit like that doesnt make you wealthy, it lines the pocket of other people. There arent that many dream jobs left and a greater share of the profits are going to (not you). Sorry, most people arent going to "manifest" their way out of by trying to pull themselves up by their boots harder. The quickest way out of the rat race is to not be a rat. Dont spend money on stupid shit, invest the savings in a business or the stock market, and do something better with your life than working your ass off to make somebody else rich so you can buy something shiny
I wonder if this article makes somewhat of a straw man of the argument for FIRE. No doubt retirement itself can be enervating and the beginning of a slow, purposeless decline. But normal people in the real world are more often than not stretched between priorities, held beneath the arbitrary whims of management, the vagaries of life and their costs, and lacking the psychological or financial bandwidth to create space and "discover" themselves and pursue their passion. Flecks of meaning can add up here and there, but the argument seems to discount the frictions of life that can make FIRE or a less extreme derivative rational and attractive to pursue as part of a diversified life strategy to living well.
I agree that someone coming out of college should not be focused on FIRE. One should be focused on building a foundation for a career and finances. But I believe it is wrong to denigrate the entire FIRE movement. The vast majority of those who are truly FIREd (meaning that, regardless of the market, they do not have to work) do so in their 50s and early 60s, have enough assets (from the foundation established by the career and good financial planning) to have diversified, probably like (or like me) loved their jobs but time became more important than money, and are staying active and minimizing sitting time, whether in front of the TV, tablet, or computer. But I do question those who seek to do this in their 30s, as there is just too much life and unexpected things that can occur at that time in ones life. When the pandemic hit, I saw many young "FIRE" people panicking because their chosen side hustle had dried up and they needed to find work. They are not FIREd. Be patient, and do not think about FIRE until you are older.. Slow and steady wins the race.
This is good advice. Although I’m not sure the FIRE folk would agree that retiring in one’s 50s and early 60s is FIREing. Then again, who cares? Call it whatever you want.
I retired at 58 and am in year 6. I loved my work and my career, and as you aptly observed, got to the point where time was worth more to me than money; and I was at a crossroads (layoff) when I decided I’d had enough and simply dropped out. I don’t think of myself as a FIREee, though. My goal was never to retire as early as possible. It was to live life as much as possible, find engaging work, save up for “some day”, and keep my head down.
One day I woke up and realized I was done - because time was worth more to me than money; and I had enough money to do something about it.
Hilarious! Thank you. I am feeling the green shoots of a great movie script in this material.
Jared, your essay reminds me of a short story Somerset Maugham wrote years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lotus_Eater
JGB
Gosh damn that was good. Nothing much is new, eh?
Hilarious. I enjoyed the read.
In fact, I read it twice. Thank you for a great morning read ;)
BUT, to echo some of the other commenters, the people I know who aim for FIRE don't really see it as a way for a future of doing nothing other than playing guitar all day, but see it more as the point where you have your... how we call it... FU money.
Your boss really annoys you? FU. I can take my time and change for another job or accept a lower pay. Your company needs to restructure and lays you off? FU. I can handle that. COVID Ver.21. comes around the corner? FU. I don't need government handouts. I want to start a small business? FU. Hell yeah I can do that without worrying about my expenses being covered.
So yeah, there is more color to all that.
Early retirement to me means more golf trips, bicycling around the world, teaching high school history, and running for city council.
Time value of money and the belief that the vast majority of people will remain productive and/or innovative and that productivity will reflect in higher stock prices over time tells me that I ought to decay in front of a computer screen for a bit longer to invest as much as possible before I pursue the above.
I welcome the idea of actually getting to a place of being bored, I can't even imagine it at this point.
If my desire for FIRE leads to a new form of existential crisis, at least I'll be rich having the next one because I live there already.